338 WM Not grouping at 100 yards.

by **RichBirdHunter** Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:44 am

Hello all, I have a rem 700 in 338 Win Mag. Loaded up some new rounds 200gr. I will put the rest of the data in later. at 50 yards 4 shots all touching, at 100 yards 5 inch "group" not much of a group at all. at 200 yards I was hitting a steel pig about 18" across all day long. So 50 yards is great, 200 yards are fine, 100 yards goes to the poop house. I had a right to left wind at about 15mph, but did not effect 50 yard or 200 yard shot??????????

A little help please

by **hawcer** Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:51 am

hmmmmm.....my best guess is, your 5" group at 100 yards is around 8-10" at 200 yards, which is still smaller than your 18" pig.
Anything affecting your accuracy is going to multiply the farther you shoot unless it is human error....
maybe you are canting your sights/scope at various angles at the 100 yard target making your group widen....this can easily happen with circular targets.

I'd still work for smaller groups at 100 yards.....I would think that rifle and cartridge is more than capable.

by **XbonesX** Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:33 pm

I have heard of something similar on 6.5 calibers. Groups at 50, sucks at 100, then are amazing at 200-300.

the bullet isn't stabilizing until 200+ yards. 50 yards is so close it doesn't matter, but its noticeable at 100. was there any "keyholing" on the 50 yard targets?

what is the twist rate of your barrel, any velocity data?

by **Mohunter** Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:35 pm

That's what I was going to mention was key holes. Can you post a pic of your groups at 50 and 100 yards?
Are the holes the least bit oblong or just not a perfect circular hole?
They should be, if not you got a problem that I don't know how to remedy besides send the gun back to Remington.

I read a post on another website where a guy using a brand new Remington rifle in 22-250 caliber had the same problem. It was a high dollar rifle too......like $1,300 bucks or something like that?
It was the VSSF model I believe? Stainless Steel Fluted whatever they call it.

Not trying to scare ya or anything, but if it is key holeing then you will need a gunsmith or Remington to look at it. If it's a brand new rifle then it should go back to the factory for warranty repairs.

by Xprez Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:22 am

XbonesX wrote:I have heard of something similar on 6.5 calibers. Groups at 50, sucks at 100, then are amazing at 200-300.

the bullet isn't stabilizing until 200+ yards. 50 yards is so close it doesn't matter, but its noticeable at 100.

The bullet is stable as soon as it leaves the barrel, unless it lacks the need spin.

was there any "keyholing" on the 50 yard targets?

what is the twist rate of your barrel, any velocity data?

Here's the thing you should check out.

by Reload3006 Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:03 am

18 inches is a pretty big target at 200 even for a five inch group at 100 and Xprez is correct IMO the bullet should be stable at the muzzle if you have the spin. If you can tell me the twist of your barrel and the velocity you think you are getting out of your round. I can run it on my software and see if it should be stable. give me a little more info on the bullet is it boat tail spitzer etc. and i can run it and see if it should be stable. If it should be and you notice key holing at 50 yds you may need to go faster on you load. if you can. or a different style of bullet. also the factory isn't always perfect I would mic my bullets to make sure they are the right size I would also slug my bore and make sure it is the right size. Or it could be every thing every one else has said.

by dartfreak75 Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:10 am

this could be very valueable information for me too im haveing the same problem out of my friends 243 shoots good at 50 but goes all to crap at 100 + his was key holeing at 50 it was a 100 grain FACTORY load federals i do believe! maybe yall can help both of us!

by Reload3006 Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:13 am

dartfreak75 wrote:this could be very valueable information for me too im haveing the same problem out of my friends 243 shoots good at 50 but goes all to crap at 100 + his was key holeing at 50 it was a 100 grain FACTORY load federals i do believe! maybe yall can help both of us!

do you know the twist of his barrel? and the velocity of his rounds?

by **XbonesX** Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:04 am

Xprez wrote:
XbonesX wrote:I have heard of something similar on 6.5 calibers. Groups at 50, sucks at 100, then are amazing at 200-300.

the bullet isn't stabilizing until 200+ yards. 50 yards is so close it doesn't matter, but its noticeable at 100.

The bullet is stable as soon as it leaves the barrel, unless it lacks the need spin.

was there any "keyholing" on the 50 yard targets?

what is the twist rate of your barrel, any velocity data?

Here's the thing you should check out.

Sorry Xprez but I have to disagree. Now i'm no scientist, but do some research on "bullet going to sleep", which is a term used by benchrest shooters.

Here are some good posts to read that explain it better then I ever could.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1690626 3rd down #1690626
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1982236 8th down #1982236

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_ballistics
"Projectiles like small arms bullets and artillery shells must deal with their Center of Pressure (CP) being in front of their Center of Gravity (CG), which destabilizes these projectiles during flight. To stabilize such projectiles the projectile is spun around its longitudinal (leading to trailing) axis. The spinning mass makes the bullets length axis resistant to the destabilizing overturning torque of the CP being in front of the CG."

Here is a good video from Berger that puts it all into perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pF8W5liSRc

by Xprez Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:22 am

XbonesX wrote:

Sorry Xprez but I have to disagree. Now i'm no scientist, but do some research on "bullet going to sleep", which is a term used by benchrest shooters.

Here are some good posts to read that explain it better then I ever could.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1690626 3rd down #1690626
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1982236 8th down #1982236

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_ballistics
"Projectiles like small arms bullets and artillery shells must deal with their Center of Pressure (CP) being in front of their Center of Gravity (CG), which destabilizes these projectiles during flight. To stabilize such projectiles the projectile is spun around its longitudinal (leading to trailing) axis. The spinning mass makes the bullets length axis resistant to the destabilizing overturning torque of the CP being in front of the CG."

Here is a good video from Berger that puts it all into perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pF8W5liSRc

Actually we are both right. What I ment is if the aducate spins is there, the bullet is stable enough not to create a "keyhole" entrance in i.e. paper targets. This within hunting standards, not benchrest standards. We have actually "manufactured" these types of results at our range, to se how much initial yaw and/or pitch is required to get the bullet to stray so far away from the point of aim, to call it "not recommended" for hunting accurasy. And it's quiet "much" compared to benchrest.

By the way, i think this link show some more to it, you can actually "follow" the bullet and it's wrigling path. Very Happy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH9SCbCBHaY&NR=1

by **Mohunter** Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:14 am

Where's Richbirdhunter at in all this discussion anyway??
Wasn't this His problem to begin with?? If he's really concerned much at all about getting the problem figured out, I would think he would join in on the discussion here at some point?!?! Shocked

In the meantime............here's one of my favorite videos of bullets impacting stuff which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand! Very Happy

Enjoy!! Turn up the volume and feel free to dance around the computer while you watch.

by Reload3006 Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:33 am

a perfect demonstration why you projectile needs to spin about its axis if it is imbalanced it will produce pitch and yaw and will not have a predictable flight path. Whether it be bench rest accuracy or even hunting there are a lot of factors in play.
1) diameter of rifle bore to projectile diameter
2) projectile construction
3) bearing surface of projectile (is the rifling properly griping the projectile)
4) is the rifle muzzle round or perhaps been dropped and egg shaped
5) is the crown of the muzzle square to the axis of the bore
6) Does the projectile have enough velocity with the spin rate of the barrel to produce needed spin (stabilization)
If the projectile is key holing at 50yds it more than likely will not fly true once it is flying (wobbling) Newton says that it will continue to do so
also the forces of air pressure and resistance will only cause it to get worse not better.

by **Mohunter** Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:59 am

Here's a greatly detailed explanation on bullet stabilization that should twist your brains in knots and keep you all busy for awhile......Your Welcome! Very Happy

Link--> http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2007/01/stabilization-mythology.html

by Reload3006 Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:16 am

Mohunter wrote:Here's a greatly detailed explanation on bullet stabilization that should twist your brains in knots and keep you all busy for awhile......Your Welcome!

Link--> http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2007/01/stabilization-mythology.html

thanks mo one of the best articles ive ever read on the subject.

by **RichBirdHunter** Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:58 am

Sorry guys, I started a new job this week and have been working. I have been checking in on my phone but have not had the info until now.

Hornady 338cal #3310
200 Gr.sp

Powder
IMR4350
69Gr.

Primer
Winchester WLRM
Large Rifle Primer

I can't find the rate of twist, I'll keep looking.

Thanks for all the input, at least I can hit the broad side of a barn at this point,but I would like to dial it in a little bit more.

by **Mohunter** Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:46 pm

There you are........I was starting to get worried man! Rolling Eyes

Is this what your going to elk hunt this year with?

by **XbonesX** Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:28 pm

Xprez wrote:
By the way, i think this link show some more to it, you can actually "follow" the bullet and it's wrigling path.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH9SCbCBHaY&NR=1

another great video link, thanks!

by **RichBirdHunter** Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:08 pm

Mohunter wrote:There you are........I was starting to get worried man!

Is this what your going to elk hunt this year with?

Not if this is the best I can shoot with it. I am going to try different powders at .5 gr intervals and see if that tightens anything up

by Reload3006 Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:10 pm

remington says that that rifle has a 1:10 twist barrel my software is showing a 1:15 twist for that projectile and the velocity that you should be going. Try slower or a lighter bullet?

by **RichBirdHunter** Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:12 pm

I'll call Remington and ask what the twist is. I can have that info Monday

by Reload3006 Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:39 am

I went to the Remington web site and also to several other gun makers. The common barrel twist rate for that round is one in ten. I went to the hornady and gathered as much information from their web site as i could on their bullet. and also went to the hodgdon reloading data web site and found that you are pushing your round out at about 2700 fps. My Corbin twist rate calculator says that round should be stabilized in a 1 in fifteen twist barrel. so I played around with the velocity if you back off to 2000fps it says it should be pretty good. But then what would be the purpose of a magnum? and If that twist isn't right why Is it the twist Sako , Ruger , Remingtion all use? I would definitely be talking to remington and ask them what they think is going on. I would say defective barrel defective bullets. one of the two.

by dartfreak75 Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:45 pm

the twist is 1-10" the vel was 2960 (rated) at muzzle with a 22 inch barrel!

by Reload3006 Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:54 pm

dartfreak75 wrote:the twist is 1-10" the vel was 2960 (rated) at muzzle with a 22 inch barrel!

corbins twist rate calculator says you should be right on in terms of stabilization I would check different weights velocities or check out the barrel.

by dartfreak75 Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:05 pm

what should i look for in terms of the barrel could it be damaged??

by Reload3006 Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:54 am

check to make sure the crown of the muzzle is square with the bore. look for obvious signs that the barrel has been dropped etc and that the hole at the muzzle is round. check to make sure it hasn't been "rung" this happens when it has been shot with an obstruction in it. Have it inspected by a gunsmith if its not under warranty any longer. if that all checks out try different ammo.

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338 WM Not grouping at 100 yards.

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