another option for forming bullet points?

I was thinking of different ways to possibly form the points on a bullet without utilizing any specific die.

This is what I came up with...

take two steel square or rectangular bars at least 1" x 1.5" and about 4" to 6" long. Clamp them together on the 1.5" sides and drill two 3/8" holes through both pieces....one on each end. Smaller holes could also be drilled for alignment pins.

Once the alignment pins are installed, bolt the two pieces together through the two 3/8" holes. Now drill 5 or 6 pilot holes in the seam between the two pieces of steel. use a small drill bit...3/32" worked well for my test hole...I wouldn't go any bigger. anyway drill the pilot holes about 1-1/4" deep. For the next step, I made a cutting bit out of a 15/64" drill bit(.235"). I shaped it to mimic the ogive and point of a 223 bullet. and reduced the diameter of the cutting section to .220 and resharpened it. With my drill on a reduced rpm speed, It drilled out the pilot hole with no problems. The holes will be opened up to as close as possible to the .224 with emery cloth while polishing the cavities.

The key here is to have the hole deep enough so your swaged jacket/slug will go completely into the hole before it hits the section where the point begins to form or it will deform outside of the die hole before the point forms.

The use of a arbor type press would work the best with this idea....In theory, all you would have to do is place the bullets slugs in the die holes and go through one at a time pressing them down in the pocket to form the bullet tip. If they stick...no biggie, loosen the side bolts and they should come loose.

here is a crappy rendition of a cross section...


It might work, it might not....can't say I didn't try.

How do they eject once formed?

algunjunkie wrote:How do they eject once formed?

Loosen the side bolts and they will then come loose and fall out.(in theory)

That is why it is made from two halves instead of a one solid block.

Think of it like a casting mold...heck, it could be used as a casting mold.

Defintaly an interesting concept for sure. Would like to see a working prototype..

I'll try to get a small single or double cavity together for testing...I'll have to make a makeshift 22lr rim remover...I'll try to come up with something.

If you want, I can send you some that I have de rimmed to play with. Just let me know..

hawcer wrote:

algunjunkie wrote:How do they eject once formed?

Loosen the side bolts and they will then come loose and fall out.(in theory)

That is why it is made from two halves instead of a one solid block.

Think of it like a casting mold...heck, it could be used as a casting mold.

Interesting idea you may want to add bolts on each side of your cavity Swagging creates an enormous amount of pressure it may try to separate your halves.

Daywalker wrote:If you want, I can send you some that I have de rimmed to play with. Just let me know..

Thanks for the offer DW, If I can't figure something out, I'll let you know.

Heck ,I might be able to combine the rim removal, core pressing and tip forming all in one of these swag blocks...

Reload3006 wrote:Interesting idea you may want to add bolts on each side of your cavity Swagging creates an enormous amount of pressure it may try to separate your halves.

Good point!... maybe a third bolt in the middle could be used. I could be wrong, but I don't see the tremendous stress of swaging weighing in too much with .224 bullets as compared to 40's or 45's.

Now that I'm thinking about it...I might also have to drill the small pilot hole all the way through...I have to have some place for the air or excess lead to escape to that will be occupying the nose cavity in the bullet slug.

being a tool maker .. ive used and know you can get them form Carr Lane... you could get bullet dowels and bushings for your dies. you would have to maintain perfect alignment or you could have interesting projectiles.. its a really neat idea though im anxious to see how it works.

Reload3006 wrote:http://www.carrlane.com/Catalog/index.cfm/27825071F0B221118070C1C513E111D081B0006280B1713050245221E0107070F1A3C3B285356415D

Those would work perfectly! I was thinking along the lines of cylinder head alignment pins...but those you pointed to are the bomb.

How much pressure do think is required to form 224 bullets? I am looking at some arbor presses...what do you think, 1 ton, 2 ton...3 ton?

im not sure as i have a swaging press and dont know how much it puts out. im told at cam over its several tons. i would get something that i would be happy with even if it dosent work.

wouldn't you want to form bullets in the same press as your reloading press? i mean, if you already have a freight harber press to work with, then fine.. but buying one just for 223 bullets could be expensive.

interesting idea though.. pathfinder and i are working on a simular split die idea to form 308's. the concept i think is very possible as long as your pushing in the bullets to be formed, then splitting to eject. it would keep you from using a push out rod to eject them. so full metal jackets could be a real possibility.


dan

DanRickard wrote:wouldn't you want to form bullets in the same press as your reloading press? i mean, if you already have a freight harber press to work with, then fine.. but buying one just for 223 bullets could be expensive.

I would love to be able to form them in my reloading press... I have a 20 ton shop press,but that is overkill...so I was looking into the arbor presses because I can't see a good way of using my rockchucker with this swage block design.

I'm just looking for another alternative for making bullets....Corbin needs to be sued over his "Make bullets for free" crap...that's like saying "cut firewood for free" all you need is a chainsaw,ax,splitter,wedges,etc ...ohhhh and a wood source to cut.

You do a long enough search...you'll find an older corbins website...swage.com or something similar...they used to sell the 224 kit for around $350, now it is $850??? The amount of 224's I could buy for $850 would last me the rest of my life ...about 8500 bullets....unless I start shooting them like they are 22lr's.

If I can't find a cheaper way(hopefully dw's dies work out)...I'm buying the bullets and saving the time I would have spend swaging to do some shooting.

LOL Hawcer I have Richard Corbins swage set www.rceco.com his is a little cheaper but i know what i'm going to get with his. he makes first rate gear. if you are honest with yourself you will never recoup your tooling costs. But you have the satisfaction of saying I did that my self. Well almost. any way I have his .224 8s rebated boat tail lead tip set on order think it was 825. I thought that wasnt a bad deal

guess after that i should say why i got into swaging in the first place. I went to the store to get what i needed to reload with and it wasnt there. I can swallow that I cant make the primes (at least not feasibly) I know there are videos out there telling you how to out of match tips and in a SHTF situation I may do that Also I can live with the fact that I probably would be better off letting one of the major players make my powder and brass for me. But Bullets I can do and when I have what my rifle and Me like then I dont have to worry about whether or not Grafs or Cabelas or Midway or whom ever sells them anymore.

At least you can manage your way around on his web site
Thanks for the link...just in a case I strike it rich,LOL

I know where you are coming from...I get so annoyed trying to find supplies and they are out of stock or marked up 200% because they are the only place that has it. Grrrrr

now, if a block like your saying, could be done to make Several different cals, now that would be freeken sweet. maybe worth buying a arbor press then.

btw - i was able to make .224 dies for little under $20.
and i dont even own a lathe! just a cheapo plastic drill press, a bench grinder, and a belt sander. and now that i've made about 4 sets of different cal's i dont see why i couldn't make any other caliber there is..

but i do like the block idea. the big press would work well if you made a block to do 20 bullets at once.. would save allot of swage time. heck, i dont see why you couldn't make a de-rimming die to do 20 at a time with a big press.

just make 20 rams to hold the cases, and mount a 20 hole block on the press.. wala.. press and done..

with the prices of reloading going up, to be able to remove bullets from the list of things you need to buy, it puts reloading back down to affordable. expecially when you make Pistol bullets. $30 for a case of primers, and $30 for a pound of powder = 1000+ bullets.. yay!


dan

hey Dan...what did you start with to make your 224 dies? ... I'm all about making something from nothing with almost nothing to do it with. forming the point and ejecting it from the die seems to be my biggest roadblock.

The FL rifle dies work so well because they are tapered... I am at a loss with .224 though.

hawcer wrote:hey Dan...what did you start with to make your 224 dies? ... I'm all about making something from nothing with almost nothing to do it with. forming the point and ejecting it from the die seems to be my biggest roadblock.

The FL rifle dies work so well because they are tapered... I am at a loss with .224 though.

i made mine from tempered bolts.. had a pilot hole drilled into them with a lathe.. then i took them home and did the rest. i drilled a .220 hole about 1/2 inch into it, then i modified a drill bit to cut the point.. then lapped it until it was smooth and .224.. but i ended up with a bullet that was .230 so i had to use a bullet sizing die from lee to bring it down to .226 ( was supposed to be .224 but the lee dies are made for lead and not brass jacketed bullets, so there is spring back ) then i made a sizing die to bring them down to .224. its actually .2231 and the brass springs back to .2239 - .2241

however making something from nothing has one drawback, it will prolly not stand the test of time and use.. i expect it to make a couple thousand at most before it starts to go way out of wack. also i think my tolarances arnt what a lathe cut die would be.. but it does work and for someone who doesn't have $100+ to invest in a die, it sure is a life saver.

the pilot hole was .070 so i'm using some tool steel rod that is .065 to eject the bullet from the uncut pilot hole at the top. which also acts as a lead bleed hole.. you just have to make sure the thing is really polished in the inside or else you risk getting one stuck in the die... something i've had to deal with several times..


dan

I might have to give the " bolt " idea a try sometime...it would work pretty good with a different idea I had....I didn't mention it in fear of sounding completely nuts.

But with the utilization of a bolt for a die body...with enough extra threads on the die, a smaller press( RCBS parder or small lee press) could be threaded onto the top portion of the die (inverted) and used to "lock" a upper punch in place when seating the core and then release the upper press ram and push the cored jacket the rest of the way through. or it could be used to eject the formed bullet with an ejection rod.....

It would be an odd alternative to the ram mounted ejection systems I have seen.

Of course all the extra metal in the press base that was initially used for bench mounting could be removed to reduce weight and space.

hawcer wrote:I might have to give the " bolt " idea a try sometime...it would work pretty good with a different idea I had....I didn't mention it in fear of sounding completely nuts.

But with the utilization of a bolt for a die body...with enough extra threads on the die, a smaller press( RCBS parder or small lee press) could be threaded onto the top portion of the die (inverted) and used to "lock" a upper punch in place when seating the core and then release the upper press ram and push the cored jacket the rest of the way through. or it could be used to eject the formed bullet with an ejection rod.....

It would be an odd alternative to the ram mounted ejection systems I have seen.

Of course all the extra metal in the press base that was initially used for bench mounting could be removed to reduce weight and space.

fair warning on using smaller press's for swaging bullets.. its real easy to break press's.. i started out swaging 45's in a RCBS jr 2. and i ended up snapping the handle off right at the threads.. hard to believe, its really hard steel.. but when you start over forcing a press, things usualy break on the press.

i now use a RCBS RC press to do all my swaging, and no worries about over forcing it.

i can give you pics of my ejection systems i'm using.. i've got 2 different systems that i'm using now.. neither of which are automatic.. close to it, but not there yet.

Well I gave this a shot this weekend...right now I am discouraged enough to never try again. My pilot hole for some reason decided to go off course the last 3/8" or so....I didn't realize this until I drilled out the point forming cavity(which worked nicely), and cracked the two halves apart....like i said the cavity turned out pretty good and a little undersized., but the pilot hole decided to take a 15deg angle out the bottom of the blocks. It stayed centered between the blocks...just not inline with the bullets cavity, so the bullet tip will more than likely be deformed on one side. I even took my time nibbling through while drilling the pilot hole...like I said, discouraging!

Maybe I should have only drilled the pilot only part way through, then drilled the cavity.....then finished the pilot hole the rest of the way through for bleed off or for ejection purposes.

GRRRRRRR....